God, Guilt, and What the Hell Comes Next
In a time where echo chambers are the norm and polarization feels inevitable, isn't it time a podcast take a different path? Going beyond the noise, beyond the headlines, into the ideas, values, and perspectives that shape our lives. Welcome to Middle Outcast, real conversation for a fractured world. From the social to the political, the philosophical to the personal, Middle Out podcast is about bridging divides and finding common ground. It's not about combat.
Intro:It's about connection. Not about sound bites. It's about substance. So whether you're here to challenge your assumptions, hear new stories, or simply search for that elusive middle ground, you've come to the right place. This is Middle Outcast.
Intro:Now here are your hosts, Mike Bates and Tom Rankin.
Myke:Tom,
Tom:welcome to Middle Outcast episode, I think, probably four. This is gonna be episode four. Tony, you're the one that kinda reached out. So we we we had a budding podcast going here. No idea where it's gonna go.
Tom:No idea whether it's gonna be successful or anybody's gonna be interested. But kind of in this tumultuous, time politically, we just wanted to put start putting something out there. And I think that you kinda caught onto that right away. I think you were one of the first people to submit a request in. But admittedly, I haven't looked into anything, so I can't really introduce, the topic, or you and Michelle.
Tom:And I've not met Michelle before. So don't if you don't mind, introduce yourself. Why what you had interested in and and, tell us more about Michelle. And Michelle, say hello.
Tona:Yeah, definitely. Hey, my name's Tona Rowett, and I've known Mike and Tom for years. We go way back, but we have had a shared career path. But my career path kind of diverged about almost fifteen years ago when I broke off into the nonprofit space. So I've worked in nonprofit marketing for about fifteen years.
Tona:But for many, many years, since my time in university, I've had a deep interest in faith and religion and kind of developed a personal theology. And my personal theology was really formed when I was in college. And a big part of forming my personal theology was the campus ministry that I was involved in. Ministry. So I got involved in a progressive campus ministry because of the Christian denomination that I was raised in.
Tona:And I went to Missouri State University, and so I got involved in the campus ministry that was affiliated with my denomination, the Christian denomination that I was raised in as a child. And so I have remained involved in that campus ministry, the same one that I was a member of when I went to university at Missouri State. And Michelle, who will introduce herself momentarily, is now the campus minister of that campus ministry. And I'm on the board of directors for it. So when I reached out to you to have a discussion around religion and kind of how it's playing in the culture and climate of today.
Tona:I felt like that was a really important topic for it, especially in how divisive our society is. I felt like Michelle would be a great person to kind of join that conversation with us. So Michelle, why don't you introduce yourself?
Michelle:All right. Thanks, Tona. So, I'm Michelle Scott Huffman. I am a minister ordained in the Christian church Disciples of Christ, and I serve, as Tona said, United Ministries in Higher Education, which we now call Ecclesia. And I also serve the Unitarian Universalist Church in Springfield.
Michelle:So I have a pretty broad First of all, my life experience of religion is pretty varied and a pretty broad understanding after coming into my adult experience of really, kind of like Tona, a real love for religion and faith and that kind of thing, but also a deep understanding of the damage that has been done in the name of religion and particularly in the name of Christianity in this part of the world. And so much of what I do with young people is about deconstruction and finding healing and figuring out what what is the the faith, understanding that works and that will serve them for their lifetime. So for me, it's kind of a lifelong exploration, and I love to hear other people's viewpoints and experiences. So glad to be here.
Tom:Yes. Super exciting. In fact, you're you're bringing up some words too, that will be new and learning, for me too. Certainly, a lot of my biblical study, I've learned learned words that I think are commonly used eschatology and and whatnot that are about the end of times that get used often. And then you talk about ecclesiastical.
Tom:I actually don't know what ecclesiastical or ecclesiastic means. What what does that word mean?
Michelle:Yeah. Yeah. So ecclesiastical is really just sort of pertaining to the church. Right? The the sort of assembled body that we have come to understand as the church.
Michelle:The word ecclesia, the name of our ministry, was chosen by a group of our students, and it really means those called out for a purpose. Oftentimes, when people read the Greek word ekklesia in the Christian New Testament, they translate it church, but that's not actual meaning. The word predates the formation of a church in the Greek language.
Tom:Yeah, pulling up the Greek. This is gonna be good.
Michelle:That's about all I've got.
Myke:This is gonna be just a great conversation. This even just Tom and I, this is something we talk about endlessly is, you know, church in today's government and why that is perhaps one of the biggest issues with government, maybe not. And I don't know. That'll be fun to chat about. And in my estimation, it is as just as big of a problem as money in politics.
Myke:And but it's also. The most important thing to pretty much everyone on Earth is is their religion. Right? So it is it is a fascinating thing as and as a non religious person myself, I have a profound respect and honor for one's religion. And I I feel like I've I've perhaps got religion by another name.
Myke:It it it speaks to all of the same things, you know, that that people connect with, you know, with their religion. And so, like, I I profoundly get the importance and still think that it has no place in in government. You know? Obviously, pieces of it do. Right?
Myke:Some of the most golden rules do, but what we see in America modern day is is hardly that. And that that'll be fun to talk about. I'm so freaking excited. For, hey, for for, obviously, the the audience's sake and even for Tom's and some clarity on mine, the the universalist church. That's something we see even in town heading down the, you know, the road, the the the Unitarian Universalist.
Myke:Is is that right? Is is there way around?
Michelle:Nope. You got it right.
Tom:To be the Unitarian Church, and it used to be a Universalist Church. And I'm I'm understanding somehow they joined.
Michelle:They did. They did.
Myke:Tell us about the church and why why it might be different than what people might think of here in very evangelical Southern Missouri.
Michelle:Yeah, absolutely. Unitarianism and Universalism were both radical Christian theologies. In the nineteenth century, particularly in the mid-nineteenth century, A lot of those folks were coming over here and trying to practice freedom of religion and wanted to be able to do that in either Unitarian or Universalist ways. So Unitarian viewpoint is essentially that God is one and that it's really a rejection of Trinitarian theology and doctrine more than it is so much its own sort of framework. Because what it means to say that God is one is, who knows?
Michelle:Does that mean that all religions worship one divine entity? Or does it simply mean that there's a oneness to all things? So the interpretation of that is left to the individual for the most part. But then the other side of that was universalism, which was the radical Christian belief that whatever salvation is, everyone gets it. There's no one who's left out.
Michelle:There's no eternal damnation. That's not in the character of God. And that's not something that people should believe. So around the mid twentieth century, Unitarians and Universalists merge. A lot of people who were around at that time say the Unitarians brought the reason and the Universalists brought the love.
Michelle:And they're still sort of that high. You can see who came through universalist streams and who came through Unitarian streams. And so they become one denomination or more of a movement or a fellowship. And shortly thereafter become more multi faith. So some of the oldest Unitarian Universalist churches in Boston, which is kind of the center of the beginnings, are still pretty Christian.
Michelle:But the further west you go, the less and less Christian UU ism gets. So I'm the minister here sitting in my office at First UU right now. Sometimes I like to say I'm the token Christian here, but they didn't want or ask for a token Christian. So I'm not really. But I'm one of a handful of Christians here.
Michelle:A lot of people who come to this space on Sunday mornings are atheist, agnostic, humanist, either religious or secular humanist. Some are Jewish, Buddhist, Wiccan, pagan, a handful of Christians. And so we are organized around principles and values rather than belief and doctrine. So yeah, it's an interesting place to be and it's a lot of fun.
Tom:Brought up the golden
Tona:rule. Mike had brought up the golden rule and I was just saying that every single one of the world's religions holds as its core principle, the idea of the golden rule. So essentially, they are all organized around this idea of this core principle of the golden rule and the idea of like treating one another with compassion and the idea of that is essentially that if you treat one another with compassion, you're gonna become closer to
Myke:the
Tona:divine. Whoever your divine is, whether it's one divine or many divines, you know, depending upon what your religion is, but it's all this universal principle, you know, the idea of the golden rule. And so when somebody says to me that I've had whether it's been a spouse or a family member or you know, just someone else that they're not really a religious person or they don't believe in religion or you know, but they believe in the golden rule. My response to them is that is that is religion. That's what the world's religions are based on.
Tona:So, you know,
Myke:yeah. Yes. Exactly. So where do we go wrong?
Tona:Well, I I mean, I have strong opinions about that. Just like I have strong
Tom:opinions about But
Tona:I think we went wrong because religion has really been used as a way to oppress others and to divide rather than to love and rather than to unite and the idea of compassion. So, and I think that's because we as humans, you know, at our core, are greedy and we abuse religion for personal or societal gain. So that's what it really comes down to, in my opinion. Michelle, I don't know if you have other thoughts about that.
Michelle:Well, have lots of other thoughts.
Myke:For me, the
Tom:core conflict is that is that we're balancing, an inherent selfishness with also, being able to emotionally identify with others. Right? We we can mirror others. We understand that they have desires and needs, but we value ourselves so deeply. And and I think that's where most of the core conflict in in what religions are trying to help combat or give you tools to live your life.
Michelle:Yeah. I think that the question where did we go wrong, I'd say it was probably in first century Palestine, where Christianity is sort of starting to get its footing. So from the very beginning, if you read the Christian scriptures and the Hebrew Bible, you'll see that there was never sort of a thing called Christianity, that there were all of these different kind of experiences of Christianity. So when, for instance, the Apostle Paul is talking about false teachers, the teachers that he's talking about are also a part of the New Testament that we read today, right? They did not agree on what it was to be Christian.
Michelle:And so you have this story, wide ranging story of many experiences of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, who I would argue was put to death on Rome's cross because he stood up against empire and specifically the sort of marriage of religion and empire. And that was one direction in which we went wrong. So you get this text that comes out of that experience that is, for the most part, written by and for and with oppressed peoples. And at some point, the rich and powerful and important people in the world claimed that as their own and came to see themselves as the oppressed in the text instead of the oppressor. And when put that kind of narrated experience in the hands of the most powerful people in the world, they can do really bad and dangerous things with it.
Michelle:And I think we've seen that throughout our history.
Myke:How in this current day do we get because it seems so simple to explain, and the reality is it is simple to explain. Right? Like, how on Earth can we make more people? Slip like, see that. How how it's simple.
Myke:Right? And that that's where the trick is. Like, how the heck with with a world that is so busy, consumed, in need, fearful, Like, the world sucks, and there's no two ways about that. And, like, it's it's almost impossible to comprehend how, you know, like, half the world even makes it. Like, it's insane.
Myke:How do you get people who who are needing all these things to kind of step outside of of worrying about just self, just whatever, to see kind of the bigger picture that that is so simple to see, just like you said, how it started so far back in that situation. Like, how do we fix this? It's so stinking simple, but here we are.
Tom:Yeah. What are what are you what are well, I guess, what are the it's a good question. And and I I guess it raises for me, what are the pressures that keep people from, I guess, dogmatism. What what keeps dogmatism and fundamentalism so strong to where people in my mind, I I think that if people would drop the dogmatism and start with some very basic values, as Mike was saying, very simple. Right?
Tom:Value others as inherent as inherently value in and of themselves, and that's a great place to start.
Myke:Full stop.
Tom:Right. Full stop. Start there and then build up from there. But then yeah. That's the question is then what are what are the, I guess, what are the pressures that keep people from wanting that to be a simple enough place to start and need really further explanation or further certainty in their lives.
Myke:Or for that to be what they wake up every morning and go, hey. I'm gonna operate through that lens every day.
Michelle:Yeah. Do you want to jump on that, Tona?
Tom:I'm going to
Tona:the lessons that are in the Bible. I'm going to actually, you know?
Myke:Wild stuff.
Tona:I know. I'm gonna actually follow Jesus' teachings, maybe. That would be a good place to start.
Myke:Like, so where go ahead, Tom. Go go go.
Tom:No. I I think I think that's fine because, I mean, as an atheist, there there as an atheist who's grown up Christian, and in a Christian culture, I like Christianity. I I generally like Jesus' teachings. Right? I grew up, mostly on Jesus' teachings.
Tom:However, there's there's quite a bit of actual contradiction in the Bible, even within the New Testament. But but certainly Yahweh of of the Old Testament is is not so kind and not so loving. And and I think there's a little bit of an issue in in the Bible where where he's he says, you know, he's not come to change the law or or I think he's come to fulfill the prophecy or something like that, but not one jot or tittle of the law shall shall change until the end of times come to pass. And the problem is that bolsters the Old Testament teachings, as well. So it creates this environment in which it's pretty easy to cherry pick your theology.
Tom:Yeah. It's not know, I would love to say, hey. There's an atheistic Christian community, that appeals to me. But some people simply can't accept that if you can't accept divinity, or if you can't accept Old Testament laws.
Michelle:Yeah. Definitely. So I wanna I wanna jump in, and sort of go back to your comments about the Old Testament. I tend to think of the Old Testament as the Hebrew Bible and that I don't believe in supersessionism. So when I used to teach intro to the Bible in a college class and we were in the part of the book that we typically call the Old Testament, I said, never on a test will the answer to a question be Jesus.
Michelle:Don't answer any question with Jesus. Right? We we can look back and see, in the the sort of prophecies of the Hebrew prophets, the ways in which, Jesus comes and and fulfills some of those. We can also see how, for instance, King Hezekiah comes and fulfills some of those prophecies, just as people have come and fulfilled those prophecies since Jesus. So I think that we've been taught to read the Old Testament in Christian circles in supersessionist ways and to say that God was mean and ugly and bad and Jesus brought grace.
Michelle:But when we understand that that is the text of our Jewish friends and somehow they've managed to find a loving and caring God in there, I think we have to dig a little bit deeper. And so for me, it comes with the Hebrew prophets. My understanding of the biblical text is that it's the sort of narration of a people's experience with God. In one of the very first experiments, not the first, but one of the first experiments with monotheism. And you can see how they're sort of moving through this process of understanding what it is to be in relationship with one another, what it is to form a community, what it is to be in relationship with God as a part of that, and that they struggle, right?
Michelle:And the understanding of the people who are telling these stories is that, you know, in a pre scientific age, God is responsible for everything. So the reason that we're able to smite our neighbor is because God gave us the power, right? Because God ordained it. I think when we can sort of read past some of that, particularly the Hebrew prophets are really these sort of beautiful, kind of sometimes gentle, sometimes not gentle at all, sort of calling out of the people of Israel to say, you are to love your neighbor, you're to love the immigrant in your midst, you're to care for the orphan and the widow, you're to feed each other, you're you know, to cross these boundaries, these lines of both ethnicity and religion, and to find ways to be community together. And I think that can shine through, but not when we say like Jesus came to replace this, because Jesus never renounced his own Judaism.
Michelle:He was a first century Palestinian Jew, and he hoped to reform the religion that he was a part of. So I don't think I answered the question, but that is to say that people have looked for simple answers because it's comfortable and because they're fearful and because they're busy and because they just want someone to tell them what's true and to do the easy work. And it's hard, hard work to follow Jesus.
Myke:So then it would seem maybe sensible just to let people know it's okay to like not it like it is hard, right? Like and people are busy. And, like, maybe people just need to be reminded that it's okay for things to be hard and busy. But, like Yeah. It's like you that doesn't mean that, like, you know, you have to flip over to this alternative that is the the again, it's so simple.
Myke:Right? And and maybe grace is just what's missing and and reminder that, like, it's okay.
Michelle:Well, and Tona grew up in a different religious experience than I did. So I grew up in very much fundamentalist evangelical kind of spaces and had to wrestle with these crises of belief. I was a Southern Baptist woman who knew that I was sort of called into vocational ministry. And I told my pastor that and he laughed at me and said, God doesn't call women to ministry. And I had to wrestle that out.
Michelle:I had to sort of put all the other voices aside and do this wrestling. And when I came out of that, I just knew that I had to leave, right? And so I jumped from the, as they say, the frying pan into the fire and went to a more fundamentalist kind of evangelical space because I knew that they ordained women. And then some, I don't know, seven or eight years later, I come to understand that I am a queer human and that I have another crisis of faith to sort of wrestle out, right?
Myke:So my path My whole nanny.
Michelle:You just
Tom:smacked around the whole way around.
Michelle:My path to progressive Christianity was not a straight one, right? So Literally. The thing about that is, right? No pun intended. But the thing about that is that like, I speak the language and I understand the experience of people who are in that other place.
Michelle:And I don't think that my place is better, but I do think that my place is different and maybe that I worked harder to get there than some people who are still in their kind of embedded belief system that was just handed to them.
Myke:Yeah. You
Tom:mentioned you mentioned Tona's Tona's experience is a little different too. And and, Tona, what what is your background? What exactly did you grow up with?
Tona:Yeah. I grew up in the United Church of Christ, which is a it's a Oh. Mainline Christian denomination. It is a progressive church. So, I grew up, you know, knowing that I could question anything I wanted to question.
Tona:I did ask a lot of questions when I was young. If I was taught that the world was created in seven days, I asked questions about that. I didn't really understand how that was possible. And it was Okay that I asked questions. And when I challenged things that was welcomed in my faith and in my background.
Tona:And so I grew up in that tradition. And I also grew up in a tradition where women were ordained, where they welcomed people who were queer. You know, just like that was that was my tradition. When I came to
Myke:How do I join this church?
Tona:Sounds cool. So it is I I found it to be very cool. I've also come to learn things about the denomination that each each congregation can kind of determine, you know, what it's going to agree with. So, congregation can say, you know, we want we want to follow this piece of the of of the wider churches you know, decisions and there are other pieces that we don't want to follow and so, my home church, for example, I don't necessarily agree with the things that they do today. And the decisions that they've made today.
Tona:So when I go home and go to church, it's not the same church that I grew up with and I don't feel at home there anymore. So, that said, when I came to university and I knew that there was a group of people who you know, grew up in the same kind of of faith and background and had the same kind of approach to faith that I did and Christianity that I did and welcomed people in the way that I did. So that was a big part of it and helped people understand. Because here, I came from Southern Illinois, so the St. Louis kind of area.
Tona:And I moved to Southwest Missouri, which is the Bible Belt, know, heart of, the heart of, you know, AG country. All of a sudden, it's like, I've met all of these people who are from these really conservative backgrounds that I hadn't really met before. And so, I'm kind of faced with understanding a completely different approach to faith that I hadn't really been confronted with at at a time in my life where I'm supposed to be, you know, really spreading my wings and exploring things and so, that was the time where I really truly defined my my personal theology and again, that my campus ministry was a big part of of defining that for me and really has kind of set chart of my course for that personal theology for the rest of my life. So, here I am some thirty years later and it's still been a core of my personal theology and I've remained involved in my campus ministry as a board member to this day. So, I mean, I don't actually have a church today.
Tona:I now live in North Carolina. So, I no longer live in Missouri but I've moved to an area that's I would still consider the Bible Belt and is just as conservative religiously. It's no longer like the AG church. It's now Southern Baptist. So everything Southern Baptist around here.
Tona:It's just as hard for me to find like a progressive church to belong to here as it was like to be in, you know, Southwest Missouri and to find that. So so I don't belong to a church right now. I don't have a church home or a church community but I still practice my religion and I still consider myself to be a religious person. And my Christianity and faith are a big part of my identity.
Myke:So I'd love to hear, like you talked about kind of the carving out of, you know, your kind of personal theology. You've talked a lot about your values. I don't think there'd be anything I'm surprised, but it would be cool to hear how you define your theology in this context of theology. So, yeah, let's I'd love to hear it.
Tom:And and if you if you could, so theology is a little bit of a tricky word for me that that I don't know always resonates with people. Maybe even just expand on what you mean when you say my theology. For for for me, it's like, you've got some philosophy, which is which is gonna be the study of about, you know, really dialectics and dialogue and words and physics and things. And theology is really that space of, well, divine. Right?
Tom:But I don't know that it's always really clear how people differentiate the two, or not even just philosophy, but how how do you when you say something is theological, what what category, what group are you putting that in?
Tona:For me, I just mean my belief system as it relates to God.
Myke:Yeah. And so,
Tona:like, pointless. My personal belief system as it relates to God. So
Tom:Okay.
Tona:I, for instance, I use the Bible as a tool, but I don't believe it's the divine word of god. I don't believe it was handed down from the sky and, you know, it was written as it word for word and it was God's word and it should be taken as it was written. I don't believe that. I believe that, you know, was written by me. It was inspired by god.
Tona:And there are deep lessons and teachings and again, that it's a tool that I can use and put into practice in my life but I don't think that it is something that that it's inerrant and it should be used word for word. So that's not something that I believe, and that's part of my personal theology.
Tom:Maybe a a weird question. How do you define your God? What is what is God to you?
Tona:Gosh. God is god
Tom:is The easy question.
Tona:God is nature. God is, like oh, how do I define God? God, like, God is not a a person or
Tom:Agent or a being with with agency or will for people.
Tona:It's more I would A
Myke:man in the sky.
Tona:Right. More the universe.
Tom:Hey. It sounds sounds more pantheistic.
Tona:Yes.
Tom:It the the the source and really, I I think a source is a lot
Tona:of times what people think about When I'm speaking to myself rather than or I'm praying, I use the term creator more than I use the term God.
Tom:Okay.
Tona:So I pray to the creator. So that's the term that I use more or giver of life. Sometimes I use that term.
Myke:Yeah. I those terms are definitely more universally embraced, you know, and and yeah, obviously can be whatever your god is to you exactly like, you know, you were both saying earlier. That that's why the you know, the unitarian and universalist approach. I mean, that that to me is a way of life that resonates with like everything. Right?
Myke:Like, don't slap labels on it. Just just just do what's natural and good. And like, that's just always made sense. And same. Why would it be any different with religion?
Myke:And like, I've always loved that approach of of that church. So kudos. And I wish there were just more churches like this. What would you say the breakdown is? You kind of mentioned, you know, hey, we've got Christians, we've got atheists, we've got, you know, all these other kinds of spirituality, you know, Wiccan, you know, whatever.
Myke:Kind of give a breakdown, like, of just those kinds of buckets percentage wise, if it's even possible.
Michelle:Yeah, for sure. I think if this UU church had 100 people in it, I think 50 to 60 of them would be humanist. Some of them would be secular humanists and some of them would be religious humanists. And I think probably maybe three to five would be universalist Christians. I think probably You
Myke:really are one of the token ones. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
Michelle:15 would be pagan, Wiccan, some other earth centered religion. And then I think the sort of in between there, whatever's left would be kind of seekers, agnostics, atheists, just all kinds of different, you know, the handful of Buddhists that we have in the room, sometimes a couple of Jewish So it really is just this sort of experience of bringing what we hope is bringing all of who you are, all of your experience to go back to that question about defining theology, I tend to think of it as the study or the conversation about what is sacred, which is not necessarily an idea of God. But that which sort of grounds us and moves us and calls us into and out of ourselves, I think is the work of theology. I think that primarily doing theology is to do meaning making. And I think that as human beings, we created with a need for meaning making.
Michelle:That's what we've done all along. And I think that religion became a tool for our meaning making. And it's a tool that we've sometimes wielded in the wrong ways in sometimes Not helpful ways anyway. That tool can be used for good, certainly. So Tonya talked a little bit about pray, when I pray.
Michelle:I had a conversation several years ago with a campus ministry colleague from one of our more conservative ministries on campus. He said, You seem like a safe person. Can I talk to you? And We sat down and we had a conversation for a couple of hours. In that conversation, he said, I'm struggling with my sort of theology of prayer.
Michelle:I'm not sure that I believe everything that's been taught to me about what my prayers do and how it works and what's required of me. And I just said, you know, I
Myke:You're not doing it right, sir.
Michelle:I I said, I think that if someone has stage four cancer and they ask for prayer and all the people in a particular church setting somehow believe that if enough people pray and they pray in the right way at the right time in the right place, that God will heal this person, then that God's an asshole, and I don't wanna have anything to do with it. Right?
Tom:Oh, strong words.
Michelle:And and so my friend who I was having a conversation with was a little shocked for a minute, but then he was like, I mean, I guess you're right. And so his next question then was, so do you pray? And I said, I do. And he's like, well, what does that look like? And I said, well, in my more enlightened times, I don't think of God as a sort of chess player and us as pawns on a chessboard that God is moving around.
Michelle:But I think of prayer as the opportunity to align my own will and my own vision with something greater, something outside of myself that's bigger and more important than just me. And so to me, that's kind of the work of doing theology is trying to connect with the sacred and trying to get outside of myself Mhmm. So that I can see a bigger picture.
Myke:Yeah. And, like
Tom:I love that.
Myke:These are, like, just those really basic universal, you know, like air quotes, truths, like that version of prayer is another person's meditation, right? That version of prayer is another person's, you know, yoga experience or whatever. And, like, that's the thing that that every human has. And you can respect that. Everyone it seems so profoundly easy to have a respect for that no matter what the label is.
Myke:And like, what the hell? How have we got it so wrong? It's nuts. It's nuts to me. And I just can't stop thinking about that.
Myke:That's We've
Michelle:done so much damage to people, Right? That
Tom:Mhmm. Certainly.
Michelle:We can't stop thinking about it because we have harmed people almost irreparably. And so I sort of think of it as my life's work to hold space for the healing. For whoever needs that. And I say to our church partners, you're not gonna like hearing this, but I could care less if our students graduate and are Christian. What I care about is that they've come here, they've felt the permission and the safety to ask big questions.
Michelle:They've expressed their doubts. They've wrestled with things. They've healed from what harmed them. And they've found a spiritual path that works, that makes sense for them. And that's my whole goal.
Michelle:And I feel incredibly blessed that there are a handful of mainline churches that have said, Yes, we'll support that.
Myke:That is great. We oh, it's hey. We're on the same mission, so so that that feels that feels good. We are fighting the same fight.
Tom:What are what are some of the what are some of the hindrances hindrances for people who, who join the church? What what is hard for them in maybe a deconversion or an acceptance of this type of a theology? What are their real struggles? I mean, obviously, for somebody who's who grew up Southern Baptist like you did, probably a lot of existential issues that you had to run through. Right?
Tom:Yeah. What do most of your kind of congregants who are deconstructing, what are what are some of the big things that they struggle with?
Michelle:Yeah. You I see both in the church here and in the campus ministry realm, a lot of religious trauma that people are have experienced and that, for the most part, they've walked away and they've not felt that for a while. To just step into a church space brings all of that back up. And what it's bringing up is this real sense of guilt and shame and unworthiness and oftentimes the horrible
Tom:things the things the Baptist church is teaching you?
Michelle:Lot lots of bad bad stuff comes with that. And for some people, it's just not you know, that's hard stuff to work through. And people, a lot of times just aren't in a place in their life where they have the capacity for that or the spoons as we might say. And so it's this kind of dipping your toe in and then stepping back for a while and dipping it back in and creating the space where that's okay. I run into people both on campus and out in the world who have come to the UU church who will see me and they kind of do that like duck and cover thing.
Michelle:And they're like, Oh, sorry, I haven't been around. And I'm like, We don't do guilt. Right? So the fact that your previous church participation was so tied to guilt and shame, right? Like, that's one of the first things that we can try to try to get rid of, right?
Michelle:And then for college students especially, the the next thing I say is, and let's just go ahead and take hell off the table too. And see see if that makes this a more doable process.
Tom:Yeah. Interesting.
Myke:I've got a really weird question because Michelle, since since you kind of talked about what kind of your version of prayer is, it's really damn insightful. Because it's at least from what you explained, would I be incorrect in saying that, like, you're largely just having a conversation with you're stepping out, you're having a conversation internally, that conversation maybe just disappears as you're of stepping outside and like. I wonder, so I'm going to shift gears here, kind of what percentage of I know this is a weird question. What percentage of people just let's just say in The United States, geographically speaking, not in what your definition of prayer is, but let's just say highly dedicated time in in prayer. And that doesn't have to mean a lot of time.
Myke:It just means like dedicated. I am seeking out no distraction to just sit here and like have a conversation, you know, with God or myself or whatever. How how many people do you think could do that daily? Is it a lot of people? Like, is this totally regular in in religious circles?
Michelle:That's a great question. And I will make clear that I have absolutely no, like, you know, evidence for for my Of
Myke:course. Like
Michelle:yes. I would guess that it's a, not nearly as many people who claim to, and b, not very many people at all. I mean, I would venture to guess less than a quarter of people and probably significantly less than that. I mean, when we think about the sort of I think the worldwide percentage of people that are Christian is something, near or under 30%. Now, there are very devout, Muslims and Jews who pray, certainly.
Michelle:Those are pretty small numerically groups of people. So I would say, yeah, not a lot. Now, I would also say there's a tiny percentage of people who sort of see prayer like I do. And it's that whole, the Bible says pray without ceasing. And it is kind of this sort of ongoing conversation.
Michelle:And for me, I would say that I tend to think of myself theologically as like a process theology person. Process theology suggests that we are co creators with God. God again is not like a white dude in the sky, but is more like force, life force creative energy, kind of force for good. And what I think I I have this sort of visual of prayer in my mind that the sort of God life force, whatever, is a magnet. And like in the depths of my soul is the opposite magnet, right?
Michelle:And when I clear all the crap away and I get outside of my head and I really try to commune with that which is sacred, that at some point, once in a while, the magnets meet. And there is that sense of communion with the sacred. And so so, yeah, I feel like, for me, it's kind of an ongoing conversation all the time, and once in a while, I'll be like, oh. Oh, let me let me pay closer attention to what I'm doing because I'm close to something here.
Myke:Yep. How awesome. I'm loving this. But we so we're at the hour mark. Has anybody perhaps thought of a topic they'd like to dial in on?
Michelle:I feel like Tono's really good at that.
Tom:No pressure. On the spot.
Tona:No. I haven't thought of a topic.
Myke:You've got a topic. Tom, you've got a topic then to kick off.
Tom:I've got all kinds of things that I can kick off. So yeah. So I've been on my own journey over these last couple of years. Go ahead.
Myke:Kind of so I marked this, so we'll come back when we edit, kind of do a formal kind of like, alright. Shifting gears. Some shit.
Tom:Alright. Shifting gears.
Myke:Like, whatever. Like, we have to cut to this. So Fair enough. Remember.
Tom:So so, yeah, shifting gears, and and I'll go into a little bit of my own backstory because I'm sure some of this will resonate. Live my life as a cultural Christian and and probably have been an atheist my whole life. I I wanted to believe, never really could. Convince myself a few times that maybe some personal experiences I was having were were from God or from Jesus. A lot of pressure in the Baptist church to accept Jesus.
Tom:And I tried many times to do so and kinda never really could get out of my head that all these feelings I was just generating myself. Whatever. So a few years ago, I decided to start spending some time with my own beliefs, and it created some existential issues for me too. And some of the the bigger arguments that probably were impactful for me are the loss of certainty and the loss of absolute and objective truths, and certainly a a big piece of that too. And and and I hate to say it.
Tom:I think the moral arguments are a little bit compelling, you know, indicating that there is an objective morality that, it appeals to me, to to say that even though I can't justify or I can't recognize that that's true. What are your views then about morality and objectiveness and absolute truths?
Michelle:Michelle? So I'll I'll jump in and say, I think that there probably are some absolute truths and that they revolve around what in Christianity we have called the the understanding that each and every human being is a beloved child of God. So I think that's the starting point. My wife, when she was coming back to Christianity after sort of deconstructing herself, came to the idea that she could finally read the Bible again if she would replace the word God everywhere she found it with love, with the understanding that God is pure love. And so that was the way that she could step back in and let go of some of that trauma.
Michelle:She had been through an experience of an ex gay program. And so she had a great deal of harm from that. So to me, the absolute truths are the In Unitarian Universalism, the first principle is the inherent worth and dignity of every human being, right? That is absolute truth. That if there is a force in the world that that we can call God, that pure love and good intent is the basis of it.
Michelle:So I don't think I have to let go those kind of absolute truths. But I have found that once I finally got comfortable with letting go of certainty, it was the greatest gift to my faith I've ever experienced. Christa Tippett from the On Being podcast says, it's the power of a better question. Answers rise and fall to the questions they meet. And so I've said for a long time that I think the work of faith is asking deeper and better questions.
Michelle:And when we get to the point where we think we have it all figured out, it's time to go back to the beginning and start over because we can't possibly. You sound like a scientist. If in my geographically tied, very limited 53 year old brain, can conceive of everything that God is, then that's too small. So letting go of the idea that I can hold all of that and just being open to the beauty and the mystery of it has really been an incredible gift. I'm thankful that I don't know how it happened, but I'm so thankful that I let go of that need for for certainty.
Michelle:I often say, I feel like we should all come at conversations about, the sacred with a great deal of humility because I'm pretty sure we're all wrong.
Myke:Yes. Oh, this is great.
Tom:I I think necessarily so. I don't think it's
Tona:Right.
Tom:Possible to be right.
Michelle:Right.
Tom:Right.
Myke:Yes. That's that's the that's why I hate those arguments so much is because, like, if we were both smart about it, we would just realize up front there's no way either of us are right about it. And if one of us is, there's no way to know it. So, like, why are we wasting the time on this? Let's just sidestep that reality and work on stuff together.
Tom:Well, I I love what you said, Michelle, talking about you know, I can't can't remember what your first principle was. Can you restate that first principle real quick?
Michelle:Yeah. The first principle of Unitarian Universalism is the inherent worth and dignity of every human.
Tom:Yeah. Same same in the declaration of independence. Right? We we believe these truths to be self evident. All men are created equal and and and preserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Tom:Right? I I I agree. And and it became more profound to me when when I gave up my divine, kind of views. When I realized that I could build those same views, from a humanist perspective, it became much more powerful to me. And I think that I became much more patriotic, and proud of our constitution and our declaration of independence is why, admittedly, I got into some of this stuff because Christian nationalism seems to me, the number one threat to tearing down that that impressive work that that hit, at just the right time.
Tom:Right? These enlightenment values were becoming popular, and and just happened to kinda hit at the same time that we were forming our our government. I feel very fortunate for that. And and I think that dogmatism and fundamentalism, are the biggest threat to it.
Michelle:And I think that that that kind of faith experience comes with a particular shortsightedness. Right? There there is this, you know, rapture theology brings with it escapism. And so so if all I care about is getting out of this world and into the next place that's supposed to be paradise, I like That shortsightedness changes the way I look at all kinds of things. Like other people who are different than me and climate change and governance even, right?
Michelle:Like I see this urgency to form and what I see right now and the sort of outright Christian nationalism that people are somehow now proud of, that it's this, like, race to theocracy that we have to get there. And it's with the understanding that this is all gonna end really soon. And Paul said that in, like, 50 of the common era. So
Tom:I I I have to admit that that I think that the expectation or even desire for for an afterlife, is is probably the most, undermining, worldview to actually being the most moral that you can possibly be. Because, from my perspective is once you realize that all people are valuable inherently, and you don't believe in an afterlife, you realize that your one opportunity to have impact is this one. And that if you're living your life as if this one is a stepping stone into some more beautiful future, you've you've squandered the only opportunity that you know you have. Right? This is the only one that we know that we have to actually bring good and beauty into this world.
Tom:You should live your life as if, every minute is is is valuable. And I fear that people lose sight of that with with this afterlife view. And and I think it will it will it will complicate our ability to convince people that climate change is a real existential threat, or or this growing class system in the in in The United States is a threat, because it's all temporary until we till we get to the better side.
Myke:Yeah. And there is an, like, just kind of a nowness and an immediacy to everything that I don't think is helped by technology, bringing the immediacy of everything and like the very almost too real illusion that, like, everything is a catastrophic, you know, issue right now. Mhmm. And I think people are just so freaking exhausted with it all, understandably so. Like, it is endlessly exhausting.
Myke:The world is. Right? And people, they need to like, the under technology we talked about even on the previous episode, like, I I think has just clouded all of of our reality, but, like, not really just clouded. It's actually clouded, and it's actually pouring down on us. And and, like, nobody truly, truly realizes it, I I don't think.
Myke:Well, starting to realize it. And I I think and hope over the next kind of, like, ten to fifteen years, we really, as a world, establish a different relationship with technology as it relates to, you know, social media and our communications and all of that. And hopefully we can I really have hope that slowing down a little bit will allow people to get back to the activity of like some legitimate prayer and time spent reflecting and realizing that we need to change here? There's no one's to blame for the generally speaking, no one's to blame, right, for for how we are, you know, where we are as as a human species in in this day and time, but we have to correct it. And I think people are starting to see that.
Myke:I I hope anyways. We'll see. But we gotta we gotta get back we gotta get back to the real work of, you know, being good to each other.
Tom:Have we have we ever I I don't know that it's a valid question. It makes me wonder. I don't I don't know historically. Probably Christianity and and other such religions have always had internal strife as well. It seems to me that wars unify.
Tom:That's
Myke:Well, so yeah. Yeah. And you can't and certainly people just listening to the audio version and but but anybody watching won't won't see behind me. But these are these are two kind of graphs that I can't stop thinking about, and they don't even you're not gonna see anything. But but the two charts are one is the history of world religions, and the other is just the history of human time and all of our civilizations.
Myke:And when you look at these things next to each other, it's fascinating stuff.
Tom:I bet. And
Myke:so, like, you see just this history of time, and, like, you see us way, way down. You know, Christianity is kind of, like, here on that chart somewhere around there. And then, like, you know, this other one, we're, like, way down here. And so, like, you see all of this and, like, oh, in, like, this amount of time on those charts is when we introduced everything this world knows about, believes in, and operates off of day in, day out, twenty four seven, in your face. Like, the world has never seen this.
Myke:Like so right now, I know it's easy to be like, oh, we're all addicted to our phones. No shit. But like, have you actually stopped to think about what that means in the greater history of like our civilization?
Tona:Right.
Myke:And when you think about it in non just, like, simple linear time, when you start thinking about it in cycles of time and, like, woah, if you remove yourself far enough, you you can look at these charts and be like, those freaking moron, you know, Mayans or, you know, like, oh, what, you know, what? These falls of these great civilizations. It comes on quick.
Michelle:Mhmm.
Myke:So I don't know. That's where kind of the immediacy of of this show of of having these conversations comes in because, like, I don't think, you know, these civilizations and and these, you know, religions, even these societies, you know, they didn't recognize it right in the moment. But we've got a lot more context of time that we can analyze and look back on that they didn't. And so my goodness, like, just believe whatever you want. I don't care what your god is.
Myke:Just, like, don't let it ruin it for everyone. The world is in a new state. We have a oneness that we've never known that technology brought. Like, gosh, the world's never seen this, and I feel like it's kind of on us as, you know, the people of this world to make sure we keep going forward on the rails and not off because it feels like we're getting off the rails right now. That's the point of this show, y'all.
Myke:Any other topics we want to, like, cover as as far as I don't know what's going on in politics specifically or like, you know, is there like the church? Do you want to get more people involved? Like what?
Tona:What can we do? Your background? What's your background with the Yeah.
Myke:Yeah. Okay, fair. So my religious background is not too exciting. I my parents were both religious. Certainly my dad more so than than my mom.
Myke:And I say that because my dad, you know, really spent time, you know, studying that stuff a bit, found it through music often. And, you know, so general Christian values, I think, were instilled in our family. But it was I mean, I don't even remember church ever really being a thing until it was like friends would go to church. Right. So, you know, obviously knew it as a thing, but nothing we really do in our family.
Myke:Sunday is just a regular day. And then, you know, started getting into about middle school before, you know, started knowing that, oh, people go to church. And I would go with some friends and stuff. And, you know, I didn't quite get it. But, you know, I was I was certainly I certainly believed in God.
Myke:You know, it wasn't a big thing for me. But if anybody asked, yeah, believed in God. I didn't really think about it. And so fast forward into high school, started going to a church, had some pretty significant life events that led to that, a friend pass away. And that's going to send anybody going to seek a church.
Myke:And so, you know, I started going and kind of similar, Tono, to you is I had questions like. And they were dumb questions, too. It's like everything goes to heaven like, you know, my young brain is just like. Do bugs go to heaven like I just like it didn't make sense, right? Like these these really inhuman things also have life, like what happens to them, too?
Myke:Like, it just didn't make sense. Everyone's account of what heaven was like didn't make sense. Like nothing made sense. And so, you know, yes, I asked weird questions and, like, got weird answers that I wasn't satisfied with. Didn't really give it any thought.
Myke:I just kind of was like, I don't get it. And I'd rather go, you know, play in a band and, like, go skating and, you know, like, it just wasn't too important to me. I had, you know, sufficient support through friends largely. I had a very strong friend group that still maintains largely even today. Had a lot of other things.
Myke:I kind of turned a lot internally, I think, getting through some of those now reflecting back like very pivotal fundamental years and how those were dealt with and looking at all that back, I see a lot of what people find in religion that I found in other things. And so, like, I don't think that's too terribly special. It's just, you know, I put different labels on things. And certainly, within the past couple of years, I've I've gone through some even more aggressive transformations. I've had what I think any, you know, like seriously, like you've got religious people and then you've got people that have had like religious experiences.
Myke:Right. And I think I've, you know, stumbled into an experience that would be tantamount, you know, to, you know, a religious experience. And I think that is something that really anybody can attain. It wasn't something I was seeking. It happened.
Myke:And it was just through time, space, comfort, therapy, just just a lot of learning, reflection and and again, comfort, safety, time. Michelle, you you said it earlier, you know, just having the the room to, you know, think about these things and and to pray and and, you know, this. And it it it sparked something really big for me. And and the really big thing is just quite simple. It's just a profound understanding of the things we've been talking about in this conversation.
Myke:And to me, like, that's religion. It doesn't matter what label you slap on it. It's the oneness of it all. Right? Like like we've been saying.
Myke:So it's all connected. It's all pipes. I I I love it all, and I just wish more people shared these feelings because it feels like so much more can be accomplished and, like, easily so. So I don't know. I feel like we're taking crazy pills here.
Myke:That's my religion. Rock on. Any other like, yeah, we have no idea how to, like, start dealing with the dead silence on these things. So.
Tom:Wait, was there silence?
Michelle:So I'm a certified courage and renewal facilitator with the Center for Courage and Renewal and lead circles of trust. And one of the touchstones of that experience is to treat silence like a member of the conversation. And not be afraid of it, not try to fill it up, but that it's okay to leave space. I
Myke:oh, that is, I think, one of the most simple and powerful tools is just being okay to sit with yourself in silence. And and again, going back to the simple thing of, like, these damn things, like, oh, it's the root of the problem in so many freaking ways. Like, we would have been plagued, you know, with other things if it weren't that. But but yeah. Oh, more people.
Myke:Please just breathe. And oh, it helps so much. I love it.
Tona:My attention span has gotten so damaged, for lack of a better term
Tom:Thank you, social media.
Tona:By my device. Mhmm. And I I finally purchased Wicked. I hadn't seen it in the theaters. I should have seen it in the theaters.
Tona:But I finally purchased. I broke down, and I wanted to see it before the Oscars. So I broke down. I bought it. I watched it.
Tona:And I was like, I couldn't even get through Wicked, and I had to pause and, like, go do something else for a moment. Like, go watch something else.
Myke:Yeah.
Tona:Like, that's how bad it was. That's how bad my attention span has gotten.
Myke:It's it's all of us. And and, like, on one hand, you know, it's you kinda dismiss it. You know? Everyone does because it's just so pervasive and and like, oh.
Tona:That's it's like a sickness. I was like, I this has gotten so bad. I cannot I have to fix this. I have to spend more time meditating. I have to spend more time, you know
Myke:More time praying.
Tona:Yeah. More time praying. Yeah. More time doing housework. Doing something that's, like, not tied to a device, not tied to electronics.
Tona:You know, because I use electronics for my work just like you guys do. So Yeah. Sure. Not tied to a device in some way, some type of electronic device where I can have a million distractions because it has gotten too much. Too much.
Tona:It's too easy for me to get distracted. And I think I I have adult ADHD and I probably had ADHD as a child and it just went undiagnosed my whole life. Yep. You know, I'm 54 years old and I'm self diagnosing but that is a serious problem if I can't watch a musical all the way through.
Myke:Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm I'm totally in the same boat. And and here's a challenge to anybody listening or or watching this.
Myke:You don't even have to go off the deep end and, like, go through a digital detox, you know, that a lot of people are doing like, oh, we have the safe box, you know, that we put the electronics in when we get home and, that's horseshit. But at least for like us, that's not going to fly. Yeah, tech businesses, like it's not going to work. But I think most people, present company included, had had no clue how powerful three hundred and sixty five days of intentional attempts at just spending like give yourself an hour. Find a way.
Myke:It's going to be hard as hell. You're probably going to fail at half the days on the calendar. And like, that's just part of it. Make the intention every day to just give yourself an hour of silence, of writing, of praying, of just stretching, your cold dips or whatever, the UV whatever, like, just dedicate it. And when you fail at it, because you will, you will fail, Take that as, you know, excitement to not fail the next time.
Myke:And when you fail the next time, like, just take that as a challenge to be like, I'm not going to fail this next week. Doesn't matter. Think about it every day. Don't like, get discouraged because remember, failure is part of it. Like, just keep doing it.
Myke:And eventually, you will hit, like, a stride of, like, hey. I actually did three days. I actually did four. And then once you hit that stride, like, you the benefits will hit you. And, like, that's, again, so simple.
Myke:But if it's so simple, prove me wrong. Like, it's hard. I mean, I check-in with people after this. Like, I've had this conversation with people. How to go?
Myke:Ah, stop the day. Like, it's nearly impossible. But if you are up for that challenge and you finally get there, you'll feel the results and you won't want to stop at that point. That's the thing. Even if you hit stretches of time like six months where you're not engaged in that activity, you'll want you'll know what it's like to feel that that connection, like the magnets.
Myke:Right, Michelle? Like, you'll never forget that feeling, and you'll want to come back to it no matter how long, you know, you stay away from it. That is one simple thing that I just wish people would seek because I know how hard life is. It sucks ass. And, like, it it feels like it'd be easy for there to be an hour to do that stuff.
Myke:No. It's hard. So that's why I wake up at, you know, freaking two in the morning. And that's hard. But that's that's the time I get to do that.
Myke:Right? So anyways, please engage
Tom:exhausted just thinking about it. Come on, Mike.
Myke:It is exhausting. So worth it. But but it's not, though, because, I mean, it provides you with so much. It starts off exhausting. Right?
Myke:But then it becomes part of your life and part of your thinking and ultimately part of your solution to to how you go through life. So that's a big burden to lift, in my opinion. Or to have lifted, rather. So, it's worth the effort. Yes.
Myke:Can I get an amen?
Tona:Amen. Amen.
Michelle:Hallelujah.
Myke:Tona's got a subject we're dialing in on. Tona, take it away.
Tona:Yeah. So I'd love to talk about the role that our campus ministry is playing in the loss of DEI services at Missouri State University. So as we know, Missouri State University or we may not know, but Missouri State University has after an order by the governor of Missouri, they have done away with their DEI department or all of their DEI services. And that kind of left a number of of services that students were really utilizing and taking advantage of. You know, a whole population of students unserved and our campus ministry has really picked up some of those services or is working on picking up some of those services to meet the needs of those populations and Michelle can probably fill you in a little bit better on what some of those things are but I'm really proud of of the work that our campus ministry is doing to really help fill the when it comes to you know, where all those services are are have just been closed down, literally closed down and locked up.
Tona:So, Michelle, you wanna fill in on that?
Michelle:Definitely. So I wasn't invited to the party, but someone, the governor or the legislature or somebody called in all of our university presidents for our state schools a few weeks ago and called them to the carpet and said that all DEI initiatives and multicultural programs would be canceled immediately. And my understanding is that Missouri State University has been praised for the speed of their compliance. And it literally, so a couple of years ago, the school built in the student union something called the Multicultural Resource Center. It's beautiful.
Michelle:It's a space for students who have lots of cultural differences in lots of different ways, gather and find support and find their people, so to speak. It was a really important moment in the life of the university. And here we are three years later, everything related to diversity, equity and inclusion and multiculturalism has been stripped from the walls and the shelves. And it's been renamed the Bear Cave. We fought for a long time for an interfaith space that was appropriate on campus.
Michelle:Finally, when the Multicultural Resource Center was built, they built in a small, it was still a large closet, but it was a more appropriate interfaith kind of prayer and reflection space. We couldn't call it an interfaith space, so they decided the name would be the room for reflection. And it seems that that is too woke, and the name has been changed again, to something
Myke:Man cave.
Michelle:More benign. I don't know. And, yeah. So as the only progressive campus ministry, we feel it's our mission to really support students who are feeling, abandoned right now. I'll give the example of the Inclusive Excellence Scholarship Program, which has thousands of students in it.
Michelle:It's a four year program that's kind of a cohort, and they go to different multicultural events throughout the semester that's meant to make them well rounded graduates who are culturally competent. And that scholarship program was canceled immediately. They replaced it with a scholarship program, I think it's called the Engaged Citizen or something like that, to take out any mention of diversity and inclusion. And the problem with that to me is it's great that they said, students, we're not going to take away your money. We're still going to give you your money that we told you you were going to get.
Michelle:But the social contract has been broken. Those students came to Missouri State because they thought they were going to have a particular kind of experience. And that's what brought them here. And this is a serious breach of the social contract that was formed with those students. And so we're just trying to pick up the pieces in any way that we can, move the transition closet from the Multicultural Resource Center over to our student housing building that we call the Multicultural House, provide resources and space for multicultural groups to meet.
Michelle:There's a coalition of students who have been organizing because students are amazing and they've been organizing since they were in middle school, so they know what they're doing. But they started off meeting at a place off campus because they didn't feel safe meeting on our campus. And so it's just a lot. And so we're just here as the only progressive ministry on campus to say, we're not gonna desert you, and we're here to support you in whatever way we can with whatever resources we can find. So send all your resources our way.
Michelle:We got work to do.
Myke:Yeah. It did the whiplash of this is just kind of hard to endure. It sucks. And like, I feel like the only hope there is, you know, the immediate hope is that like enough people say, hey, woah, no, this is not what we signed up for.
Tom:And like,
Myke:geez, the likelihood of that just doesn't necessarily feel the highest, right? Just even given the result of the election. Right? Like, I thought we've realized that already. So, like, I don't feel incredibly hopeful of that, at least this quickly, because people really need, you know, that time to, you know, see stuff play out.
Myke:I just I just hope we can get there fast enough, you know, to realize that, hey, this approach may work in business, like, you know, just coming in and flipping the tables over and, you know, but man, with social programs and all these institutions that have had just, I mean, decades of effort and infrastructure and thought and hardworking people putting, you know, effort into this. It's far from perfect. But if you can't point at a solution of how to come in and fix it, you can't just flip these tables over for these kind of programs. It's not a private business that you can go in and just bulldoze. Then hopefully, like, people get this quick enough and and get this, you know, turned around because good lord, it sucks.
Myke:And, like, my god, the rate at which they're moving is just impossible to to do anything. And to your point, I mean, you're there to support. It's kind of all we could do. I hate that.
Michelle:I would point back to something you said at the very beginning. Hold on, I just lost it. But it's this like, the place where we find ourselves is a direct result of religion gone awry in bed with government that seeks only power and control. And that's that's where we are right now.
Myke:That and money and politics.
Michelle:Yes. Yes.
Myke:Those two things you you like, if if we could just simply sever those two things, we'd live in a different world and one that we would all love, quite frankly, like, what are we doing? Good issue, Tona.
Tona:Thanks.
Michelle:That's why Tona's on the board of Ecclesia.
Myke:All right. So the the Universalist Church here in Springfield, I might have to even make it to one of these services at some point because Yeah, do. And I are going to show up for some services. Great. Where where are you at in town and those who may like the sound of these kind of conversations and what you and Tonah had to say, how can they find out more about your groups?
Michelle:Yeah. So First Unitarian Universalist Church is located at 2434 East Battlefield Road. You will know us by the flagpole out front that has an American flag and a Black Lives Matter flag and a rainbow pride flag. That is not to say that we have arrived in any of those ways of being, but that we strive to be places that honor what's represented by those flags. So we're here on Sunday mornings.
Michelle:Sunday services start at eleven We have a faith formation hour for children, youth, and adults at 10:00. And we have that divide between the universalists that brought love and the Unitarians that brought reason represented in our adult faith formation offerings. So there's the seekers that meets on the west side of the building, and they're having a, probably a deeply intellectual conversation and, some good healthy argument. And on the other side, the east side of the building, we have a group of adults who are doing something called spirit and practice. And we're doing this real kind of touchy feely embodied faith.
Michelle:How we live out spirituality? And so that's what's happening at 10AM before we all gather together in the sanctuary at 11AM. Is
Myke:so awesome. And is there a full band setup, stadium seating, monster trucks, anything like that that that we can see?
Michelle:Yeah. The so
Tom:Can you teach me how to be a man?
Michelle:UU Protos. UU buildings that were built as UU buildings are often have some similarities in that the entire back wall of the sanctuary is windows so that we might be connected to nature outside as we are together in worship. There are the same arguments over carpet and chairs in every denomination, but there are chairs and no pews. They tend to move around a little bit. We have a choir that's wonderful.
Michelle:We have a wonderful music director, but just a piano and a choir and a bunch of people lifting their voices together to to do something that is a communal spiritual practice is what I would say. The the production value is not what you would find in in some of the churches in this town.
Myke:Love it. Tona, do you have any parting Yeah.
Tona:You can find our campus ministry, and and if you're interested in learning more about it and or supporting it at ecclesiamsu.org. That's our website. We do have, as Michelle said, we actually own a housing facility. So it's called the multicultural house where students can it's an off campus, so it's it's just off campus. I mean, it's like right at the corner of Cherry and I don't remember across Cherry and National essentially.
Tona:Right behind Taco Bell. So, at Cherry National. Yeah. So, it's really close to campus and we own a campus housing facility. Off campus housing facility.
Tona:So, it's called the multicultural house and we provide lots of programming for students to participate in and but yeah, one one thing that students can participate in is Sunday night suppers there. Alright. It's really cool.
Myke:Excellent. We will gather those links and be sure to put them in the notes. Tom, you want to round out? No. Come on.
Myke:You do the intros, the outros.
Tom:I'll have to think of the outro. On the spot. Put me on the spot.
Myke:All right. Well, yeah, we haven't done our sign off yet. Tona and Michelle, can't thank you enough for spending several of your hours with us today. We'll get the links to all the orgs in the show notes. And remember, zoom out.
Tom:Big up to yourself.
Michelle:Thanks, Joe.
Tona:Thanks, everybody.
Myke:There you go.
Tona:Tom a
Myke:lot at that stuff. Thanks, guy.
Intro:This has been the middle outcast. Real conversations for a fractured world. With echo chambers being the norm and polarization being inevitable, we go beyond the noise, beyond the headlines. We have real raw conversations that matter. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Intro:If you did, make sure to like, rate, and review. We'll be back soon. Remember, you can find the show on all the major podcasting platforms. Plus, find even more at our website at MiddleOutcast.com. Remember, there's a lot more than what's on the surface, and that's why we're here.
Intro:See you next time on the Middled Out podcast.
Creators and Guests
